the death of billy

lynyrd · Newbie

the death of billy

Kiwi Steve · Member

I guess you could ask the question was there a photographer available to take a photo at the time and also when Bill Hickock was shot no one took a photo of him.

Webmaster · Senior Member

Welcome to the forum Lynyrd. Yes, the topic of Brushy Bill Roberts can get real touchy and a lot of times it’s hard for people to disagree without taking it personally, but as long as we can keep it cordial everyone can get along (I know….easier said than done). Anyways, did you get a chance to read Drew Gomber's article in the Ruidoso News that was posted here? Drew talks about the death of Billy the Kid and why there weren’t any pictures taken of him:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=19704&subForumID=23559&action=viewTopic&commentID
=327898&sparkKey=20203dbc035d38a772e13bbd23b2ca65b0&abKey=f6c1e8b4cc20142b46da38fcd21d6715

After Billy was killed, I’m sure Garrett was anxious to get the heck out of there before Billy’s friends started to think of revenge, so he wanted to get the coroner’s report and see the Kid buried as soon as possible. Although it is customary for us to keep our dead around for several days to almost two weeks before a funeral, in those days they didn’t have the methods of keeping a corpse from decomposing like we do, so of course they buried their dead right away. Now Billy was no exception; during the summer months without a freezer and an embalmer to keep his corpse from decomposing and smelling, the Fort Sumner residents didn't delay in burying him. There was no reason for them to wait or to get evidence (other than a coroner’s report) that the body was indeed Billy the Kid, they didn’t know that years later old men were going to claim to be him.

corilofts · Newbie

Billythe Kid...I really do think that Billy lived lived to be an old man. He was a smart man that could fool anyone!! Why would he be stupid enough to get shot by a man that he did not like! He was fast with the guns so he could of shot first and killed Patty. No 1 saw the coffin, it could've been a John Doe...

Webmaster · Senior Member

It wasn't because Billy the Kid was "stupid enough to get shot", but he was careless. Billy was careless because he did not leave the territory when he escaped from the courthouse in Lincoln, but instead headed in the opposite direction of the border and lingered around his old haunts and his favorite place --Fort Sumner. Of course, it was only a matter of time till Garrett learned of Billy’s where-abouts. That night it may have been a coincidence that Billy the Kid stumbled onto Garrett in Pete Maxwell’s bedroom or maybe he was lured or tricked into going in the dark room where Garrett was waiting for him, but it wasn’t because Billy was stupid and fell in a trap, it was because he didn’t know Garrett was there.

I believe Billy didn’t shoot Garrett because he didn’t have a gun to shoot him with and if he did, he may have held fire because he didn’t know who it was in the dark, possibly a friend. Because Billy “was” smart he delayed to fire at an unknown shadow, which goes to show he wasn’t the trigger happy killer that shot first then asked questions.

By the way, there were plenty of people that saw Billy’s body; aside from Pat Garrett and his two depuites John W. Poe and Kip McKinney, there was Pete Maxwell, Dona Luz Maxwell, Paulita Maxwell, Deluvina Maxwell, Odila Maxwell, Don Manuel Abreau, Don Pablo Beaubien, Dona Rebecca Beaubien, Paco Anaya, Jesus Silva, Jose Silva, Vicente Otero, Sabal Gutierrez, Celsa Gutierrez, Marie Lobato, Lorenzo Jaramillo, Antonio Savedra, Milnor Rudolph, Charles Rudolph, Higinio Garcia, Henry Lola, Cruz Trujillo, Alejandra Segura, Manuela Bowdre, Tom O'Folliard's common law wife, and Pedro Antonio Lucero. As for the popular excuse that the Fort Sumner residents covered up for Billy and said the body was him, not everyone in Fort Sumner liked Billy the Kid, someone there tipped Garrett off (I personally believe it was Pete Maxwell) and no doubt word would’ve leaked out quickly that Garrett shot the wrong man and that Billy the Kid was still at large.

As much as I wish Billy the Kid got away and lived happily ever after, I have to accept the reality that he died a tragic death.

jessejames · Newbie

Like everyone else, I would like to believe that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid and that he lived to be an old man but.... One of the biggest reasons why I do not believe that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid is because of the facial feature differences. There are certain features that we retain our entire life - they do not change unless artifically changed. (And The History Channel documentary - Billy the Kid: Unmasked - touched on this subject.) There are to many discrepencies in the eyes, chin, ear and nose for Brushy Bill to be Billy the Kid. Unfortunately, Pat Garrett gunned down the real Billy the Kid in 1881 - just like he said he did. As for any death photo's being taken... one thing to consider is that maybe - just maybe - Billy the Kid's friends or despondent girlfriend(s) would not allow this to be done? Maybe someone had sense enough to realize what would/could happen to the photo's if they were released to the public and put a stop to it? It's a thought!

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Jesse, I Must agree, plus the partial availability of Photographers at that time.

I also believe that Billy was given a Wake, and Mourned. I know this because my Mother's Family is Catholic, and it is Tradition to do this. The Dead is Eulogized and Mourned, and then Quickly thereafter, Buried.

Plus, the Southwest is a Very Hot Climate, and it is better to Quickly Bury a Body before Decomposition occurs.

Frenchy · Newbie

Hi,

First i want to thank you for your website. Since many years I have read a lot of books about the Kid, Pat Garrett or the history of the Lincoln County war (from Pat Garret book to M.G.Fulton, Robert Utley, Frederick Nolan, Leon C. Metz etc...) but always had suspicions about the way Billy was killed wich, at first, don't mean to me that he wasn't but there's something wrong somewhere, so came to me only three possibilities :

1) A cover up of a vicious trap made with Pete Maxwell's and others help, but then no need to kill Billy, simply take him back to Lincoln, hang him and get the 500$ reward easily.

2)A cover up of a terrible mistake: Garrett killed somebody else and passed off the body as the Kid's body, it should not be the first time, just remember December 23,1880, Garrett kill Charles Bowdre by mistake.
I feel awkward with this possibility: Garrett was an ambitious and proud man, it's difficult for me to believe he could take a risk like this one. Almost everybody ,in Fort Sumner, knew Billy by sight and some saw the body, how Garrett could let so much people into the secret and be sure nobody let it out one day thus ruin Garrett prospects?...

3)Everything is as legend and history say, if so, what a luck for Garrett! What a timing! What a change in Billy's personality!
Garrett had spend more than two month and half seeking informations about the Kid whereabouts (it seems as if he wanted to give Billy anough time to disapear...), he started the last hunt the night of Jully 10, 1881, reached Fort Sumner outskirts the night of Jully 13, looked for informations during all day Jully 14 and then around midnight with most doubts than certainty, entered Pete Maxwell's bedroom, sat on the bed and began to speak with Maxwell at the same time Billy, coming from the south side, reached the house to take some beefsteak stocked in a room on the north side of the building but when seeing Poe and McKinney wainting at the South-East corner for Garrett, decide to jump into the trap and enter Maxwell bedroom wich is on the south side of the building.
At this point I'm abashed, either Billy lost his mind or it's not Billy, I think the real Billy or any man in his situation would never have entered the house after seeing two strangers waiting outside even if he wanted to speak with Maxwell, the safest course would have been to run back in the darkness or if startled to continue his way to the north side of the house as if nothing had happened.

If the second possibility is the good one then Brushy Bill may be the Kid, he knew too much things about the Lincoln County war at a time where most facts were distorted by Garrett/Upson book and Burns's Saga, his story about what happened and how he escaped the blazing McSween home on July 19, 1878, match very much Billy's testimony at the military board of inquiry against Colonel Dudley on May 25,1879.

For me, Billy was realy killed that night but not the way Garrett or Poe told the story.
There's a lot of ground to clear and I hope one day truth will be out...

I'm from France and I went to Arizona and New Mexico in 1994 and 1995, there I collected a lot of documents about the Kid and the Lincoln County war and made a lot of photographs in Lincoln, White Oaks, Fort Sumner, Anton Chico, Mesilla and others places and you know what?... I love New Mexico and Arizona.

Best regards,
Patrick.

JettRink · Veteran Member

But didn't Pete Maxwell tell Garrett where the
kid would be because He didn't like Billy hanging
around his daugher? Why did he never testify?

texas_outlaw · Veteran Member

What I don't understand is why Billy went to Fort Sumter after making is great escape. He was smart enough and fast enough to make it to Mexico. Why didn't he head down south?

I have always pondered this. Sorry to get off the subject.

Kiwi Steve · Member

I think Billy didn,t leave because Fort sumner and the friends he thought he had there were all he had at that point in his life and he didn,t want to let it go.

Bill Doolin did the same thing,he escaped custody and went to New Mexico to hideout but after a while he went back for his wife and was killed,he had to know he was taking a huge chance but he tok the chance because he loved his wife,what billy the kid did was no different.