John Miller is billy the kidd??

ponee · Newbie

John Miller is billy the kidd??

Webmaster · Senior Member

Here’s a little on John Miller found on Lucas Speer’s Billy the Kid Website.

To cut to the chase, John Miller was not Billy the Kid, he was just one of the many old men that claimed to be Billy the Kid. His claim is so absurd that most don’t take him seriously and that’s why he’s not as commonly known as Brushy Bill Roberts.

ponee · Newbie

i have talked with james miller great grandson of max miller who was adopted by John miller aka billy the kidd. he swears hes grandpa was raised by billy the kid. and the Bond family and the Clawsons all out of ramah say the same thing too. hey web master are you from NM.???or are you one of those city folks claiming to know everything just becuase you read it in some book. im talking to real people out here and yes i live in NM the best state with the best sunsets in the whole world.i stiil think that billy was not killed by panty garret but escaped and lived in the zuni mountions west of ramah. when you talk to the locals here they tell alot of stories about BILLY. and it aint no book by some one who has never lived inthe state of NM.i think brushy bills story more BS than john millers.

Elizabeth · Member

I think you should give Marcelle more credit than you have given her--she has done years of research.

These "city folks" that have written books have also done years of research, and I don't think you should be slinging mud on them either.

I also want to say that talking to locals may not get you the true story all of the time. It doesn't matter if so-and-so swears that he was raised by Billy. If that is the only proof you have, it's probably not true that he was raised by him.

I know it is not my place to say your reply was a bit rude, so I won't say it plainly.

I agree, Ponee, New Mexico does have the best sunsets, although I'm not quite so sure why sunsets were mentioned in this topic.

Also, I am one of those "Texans," but I do not believe Brushy Bill's story (or John Milller's). I believe that Billy's bones rest in Fort Sumner.

Webmaster · Senior Member

In response to Ponee….

I don’t care if you talked to John Miller himself before he died or through a séance –he’s still a phony.

For someone who thinks that the Brushy claim is BS, then I’m rather surprised you took the Miller claim hook, line, and sinker. If you believe everything folks in New Mexico say as gospel then I take it you believe aliens crashed in Roswell, because those locals swear it happened, and since they live in New Mexico then by GOD it’s the truth!!

On another note, there are PLENTY of New Mexico people who dismiss the Miller claim or old-timers who say that their grandfather or great-grandfather was at Billy the Kid’s funeral and that Billy was killed by Pat Garrett. So how about all those New Mexican folks who say differently??? Are they full of it? After all, like you said, their “locals” and I’m just a city girl who reads too many books.

By the way, don’t be too quick to take an old-timer’s word for it, because they are just repeating what someone else told them from what they heard from someone and so on and so on, and as it almost always turns out, that “someone else” wasn’t even there and made the whole darn thing up. Majority of old-timer’s recollections are false and the first-person wasn’t even in the area or even met Billy the Kid. Unless these old-timers’ recollections can be backed up then it’s nothing more than a camp fire story told to amuse anyone gullible enough to believe it.

Lastly, you got a lot of nerve criticizing me. Just because I do research to get the facts instead of going solely on “hearsay,” or because I don’t “live in New Mexico,” doesn’t mean I don’t know a thing about Billy the Kid. I have been contacted by organizations, publications, and the Discovery Channel for my Billy the Kid research -have you?? Fred Nolan is an authority on Billy the Kid and he’s from England, so are you going to have the audacity to knock him too because he doesn’t live in New Mexico? Unless you have written several books and articles, have been interviewed for TV documentaries, been on the History Channel, Discovery Channel and CNN, and have countless historians and scholars contacting you for your expertise, than you would have no business knocking him or anyone else –including me.

P.S. Next time you address me you do so appropriately and use my name, not in the insolent way of “hey webmaster.”

ponee · Newbie

so everthing ypoui write is the truth??? i think not there are so many books that are written that are not true. for example the bible. it aint all true and if you believe it ios you are a fool. not all books are wriiten about the truth. alot of NM elders both native and white and mexicans all hold billy in high regards . he was not a racist like the TEXAS RANGERS who were a bunch of lynching rapist racist jerk who killed all the indians in texas and tried to kill all the mexicans. thats why you only see wooden indians in texas. they killed them all. you talk like you know everything there is to know but your not from NM . did you ever ride a horse through ft sumner or lincoln or anywhere in the mountions where Billy use to hang. well i have. i do it every week end. this is america and we jhave the right to disagree or question what does not seem right. but it always makes me laugh when city folks try to write about the country...especially my part of the country.there are alot of so called billy experts. the real truth is no one really knows the truth. was billy really killed?? we will never know. so you cant be all hurt and trying to put me down.

i live in NM all my life i have a 300 acre ranch with alot of horses and yes im a native american. Billy was always a good freind to the natives and would defend them and in return we would hide him. if you believe everything you read you are a fool . most books thatwritten about billy are written by non NM people who cant shoot a six shooter ot ride a horse.

Webmaster · Senior Member

Well, I refuse to stoop to your level and refute your last comments.

Did you even read my Forum Rules to use this board before you registered? To keep my board “friendly” and so it doesn’t end up like another squabbling discussion board on the Internet filled with trolls, I have strict rules of conduct and one such rule –you have broken- is as followed…

Of course debates are allowed, but do so in an intelligent and articulate matter. No back and forth meaningless arguing and name calling –posts like that will be deleted.

I don’t have a problem with people who disagree with me or want to debate, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and theories, that’s what this board is for, BUT YOU have flipped out and now have turned this debate into a “meaningless” (and I do mean “meaningless”) argument. So either lighten up and get that stick out of your butt, and maybe we’ll start getting along, or continue the way you are and get ban.

texas_outlaw · Veteran Member

I would have to agree with the Webmaster on this sunbject. Plus, Not all Texas Rangers were racists. I had several relatives who were Texas Rangers in Seguin County,Texas. To call them racists is a matter of opinion not fact.

Sorry to get off the subject.

JayPo · Member

You tell 'em, webmaster!

Ponee: I have been researching BTK for about a year now, and just to let you know, 99% of the research that I have done agrees with the information on this website. The only information that clashes comes from people claiming to be direct decendents of BTK, but they always seem to lack proper evidence. Ms. Marcelle has been researching this topic for years, and she has the credentials to provide intelligent information that is backed up by famous historians.

Now, just b/c she doesn't live in New Mexico does not mean anything. Obviously she has been there; look at her picture by BTK, Charlie Bowdre, and Tom O'Folliard's graves. I know a lot about Greek Mythology, but I have never been to Greece! Does that mean that I don't know what I am talking about?

I have my opinions about John Miller and Brushy Bill. On one hand, I wish DNA testing could prove that BTK rode off into the sunset singing as he did so. However, on the other hand, I want his soul to rest in peace where he lays. It may just be better to let his legend live on. Part of the fun of it is to not know the truth. As they say, when asked to print the truth or the legend, always print the legend!!

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Alright, Ponee, you want someone to argue with, Leave Marcelle Alone! Argue with ME!

I can Out - BTK you even on my Worst Day!

I am only a Very Distant Cousin by Marriage to BTK on his Mother's Family's Line, but none the Less, I am one of the Family!

You think your John Miller is such as BTK, I'll say Yeah, and whose Phony Argument are you going to Believe?

BTK (My Cousin), Died by Gunfire at Ft. Sumner, NM. by the Hand of Pat Garrett, and I call it Cold Blooded Murder!

Billy was a Guy with a Heart of Gold, and a Strong Sense of Right and Wrong!

He did what he had to to Survive, but I Will NEVER Believe that John Miller, Ollie Roberts, or Any other Phony Claimant is My Billy! My Billy Rests at New Mexico at Ft. Sumner!

May Billy Rest in Peace Forevermore! With the Love and Blessings of his Family.

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Oh, and Ponee, I too am Native American, VA Iroquois, Chickamauga Cherokee, Eastern and Western Cherokee, and Pawnee!

The TX Rangers sure didn't get ALL of us! One of those Rangers was one of my Kin folks! Ranger Hayes, to be Exact!

And Also, I Ride, I am an Ex - Barrel Racer (I still Support the Sport), I Shoot (And I'm Good), I am a Cowboy Action Shooter, and I work with Black Powder!

Oh, and several of my other Cousins as well, the Earps, Doc Holliday, Belle Starr, John Wesley Hardin, The Clantons and McLaurys are also where I get some of my Shooting Skills from. It Runs in the Blood!

Check your Facts before you Open your Mouth about Truth!

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

I also happen to live in AZ., just south of the Butterfield Stage Stop where Billy used to work here in So. AZ. (Have Census Record to Back it), and AZ has By Far, the Prettiest Sunsets, with NM being next.

JayPo · Member

Alrighty, then Kate! Remind me not to mess with you! Can you teach me to shoot? I am pretty good with a .44 Taurus Raging Bull, but I am horrible with any automatic handgun. My rifle skills are pretty good, though. I shoot a .308 model 670 Winchester, "the widowmaker!"

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Yeah, I can probably Teach you to shoot. Those Rifles sound Wicked! Wow!

I'm better with Single Action Guns than I am with Anything else.

Maybe Ponee will Learn to Settle Down. Hopefully, I got through to him!

JettRink · Veteran Member

quote:
Originally posted by: Can Chaser Kate
"Alright, Ponee, you want someone to argue with, Leave Marcelle Alone! Argue with ME!
I can Out - BTK you even on my Worst Day!
I am only a Very Distant Cousin by Marriage to BTK on his Mother's Family's Line, but none the Less, I am one of the Family!
You think your John Miller is such as BTK, I'll say Yeah, and whose Phony Argument are you going to Believe?
BTK (My Cousin), Died by Gunfire at Ft. Sumner, NM. by the Hand of Pat Garrett, and I call it Cold Blooded Murder!
Billy was a Guy with a Heart of Gold, and a Strong Sense of Right and Wrong!
He did what he had to to Survive, but I Will NEVER Believe that John Miller, Ollie Roberts, or Any other Phony Claimant is My Billy! My Billy Rests at New Mexico at Ft. Sumner!
May Billy Rest in Peace Forevermore! With the Love and Blessings of his Family."

No one can claim to be Billy's cousin on his
mother's side since hardly anything is known
about her or whether McCarty was her maiden or
married name even. We are paying a genealogist
in Ireland to see if Billy is related to us. At
least we know where they came from in Ireland
and where they came to in the United States,
New York and Indianapolis. I expect it will be
another month before I hear the results, but I
sure can hardly wait.

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Actually Jett, Can and Do Claim and have the Proofs to at least a Distant, By Marriage Cousinship to Billy on his Mother's Side.

I have the On Paper Proofs sitting in my Folder here at Home.

I do Very Accurate and Extremely thorough Research, and I do so Independently.

I have been Researching my History for the better part of 16 Years.

If you find Anything more, let me know, as I would be Interested in seeing such things.

texas_outlaw · Veteran Member

You Go Girl!

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Thank You, TX Outlaw. I can hold my own in a Firefight like that.

After a while of folks not believeing what you say, and what you have, you learn how to Battle without being Disagreeable.

Sometime this Evening, I am putting ALL of my Work for ALL of my Outlaws, Lawdawgs, Shady Ladies, etc. on CD Rom, but it is by No Means Finished Product of the Work I have done.

I feel there is still more to be done, but it is as thorough as I can get it at this time, and meets my High Standards for the Work that I do on my History.

JettRink · Veteran Member

quote:
Originally posted by: Can Chaser Kate
"Thank You, TX Outlaw. I can hold my own in a Firefight like that.
After a while of folks not believeing what you say, and what you have, you learn how to Battle without being Disagreeable.
Sometime this Evening, I am putting ALL of my Work for ALL of my Outlaws, Lawdawgs, Shady Ladies, etc. on CD Rom, but it is by No Means Finished Product of the Work I have done.
I feel there is still more to be done, but it is as thorough as I can get it at this time, and meets my High Standards for the Work that I do on my History."

All you have to do is ask the webmaster and she
will tell you nothng is known about Catherine
McCarty. And if you did have proof that you were
related, you could have stopped all of this DNA
business a long time ago. Historians would be
knocking your door down.

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Ponee, I KNOW my Family, and I KNOW my Blood!

I DO Know something of Katherine. She is my Aunt. One thing that will blow your Boat out of the Water, is that this past Weekend, I met with Several Major Authors and Billy Historians, and they said from thier own Lips:

"That I have more than even they do, and they don't know where else to look, and that I do have something more than anyone else!"

They each Confirmed my Work as Solid!

So there!

Eat that and Weep, Ponee!

Even Billy's Descendants Confirmed my Work as Solid! (And Yes, Billy DOES have Descendants)!

I have the Family Tree where both my Line and Katherine's Lines Split, showing Billy in Katherine's Line and me in my Line.

I am about to put ALL of my Work on CD Rom, and I have No Problem with being Swabbed for DNA.

I have Nothing to Hide. I am Honest and Independent as a Researcher.

I do Not Depend on Anyone for Any of my Materials. what I find, I do so on my own; INDEPENDENTLY!

Also, I am Close with my Loved Ones from the Spirit World, and they assist and Guide me to the Needed Records.

One other thing; My Family are EXCELLENT Record Keepers, and the Lineage is SOLID!

The line to Katherine goes as such:

Dods/Dodson/McConnico/Walker/Hunt/Bonney/McCarty/Antrim

With a Secondary Lineage off of Antrim to the Surname Smoot. (Brief Marriage of Dorothy Smoot (One of my Great Grandmothers), to Henry H. Antrim.

My Line goes as such:

Dods/Dodson/Dotson/Denney/Clark/Bryan

My Line and Billy's Line split off of the Hunt Line, my Paternal Grandmother's Cousins and a direct Great Grandparent Line off of my Dodson/Walker Line.

That Enough to Convince you?

I have been at this for 16 Years. I stumbled onto this Line, but I have it now, and am able to Claim it.

Hear me; Ponee! BILLY IS MY BLOOD KIN! NOW AND FOREVER MORE!

JayPo · Member

Kate:

When you do put your research on CD Rom, please let me know how to access it. I would love to see what your research has turned up. I do occasional research (on the web), but it seems that you have a fire for it! Keep me posted. Thanks.

JP

Can Chaser Kate · Veteran Member

Jay, Since I don't put my Work on the Internet, you may Contact me via E Mail at: CFRAINC1@msn.com, and I can arrange to have Copies of my Work sent to you.

Yes, I do have a Fire and Passion for Family Research Work. It started when I was trying to Locate my Great Grandma, Viola Dotson, as at the time, I had only heard the name Mentioned in Casual Conversation with Family in CA.

I was Living in Cheyenne, WY. at the time that I found her Records, and it took off from there.

Now, I am into the more Extended Lines, off of which All of my Outlaws, Lawdawgs, and Shady Ladies, Bank and Train Robbers, Military Figures, and Politicians and Explorers come off of.